The Waco incident stands out as the biggest blunder of the Clinton administration. Conventional wisdom would suggest that Clinton's biggest screw up (no pun intended) was the Monica Lewinsky affair and the subsequent cover up. Clearly, though, when looking at more important issues than sex (yes guys, there are some things more important than sex) we see the Waco siege as a direct violation of people's constitutional and human rights.
The film Waco: The Rules of Engagement (see parts I & II) clearly demonstrates an outrageous offense against American citizens. What does this film have to say about the danger of intolerance? What are some examples of violent acts committed by the US Government against its own people? What needs to be done to avoid another Siege at Ruby Ridge or Waco Incident? Interestingly, both of these incidents were cited by domestic militant Timothy McVeigh as reasons for his bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building in 1995. You might discuss the cyclical nature of violence. Consider Malcolm X's infamous words when asked by a reporter for his reaction to JFK's assassination: it was a case of "chickens coming home to roost." He added that "chickens coming home to roost never did make me sad; they've always made me glad."
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29 comments:
The film says volume about the danger of intolerance, that being the ATF, FBI, and the DOD hating Koresh and his followers, and therefore raiding them multiple times. Currently the U.S government is able to come to your home without permission or a warrant if they have “good” reason to believe that there is evidence of “terrorism”. The American People need to organize and voice there opinion whether it is through protest and or other methods.Violence cyclical nature is good for big business in that they profit off of the behavior of others rather that behavior is good or not.
The danger of intolerance is a big deal in this film. Because of the difference in beliefs and religion about 70 plus lives were lost. The ATF and the FBI used a great deal of weapons, the worst being tear gas and CS. The side effects of them two chemicals put together was enough to cause death. With many young children and elderly people in the home of Mt. Carmel were the ones most worried about and probably the first ones killed. The FBI were unable to tell what they were going to do when asked from command...they had no plans, they had no idea what they were doing they pretty much did what they wanted to do all because of a couple illegal guns and belief that children were being harmed. They had no warrant to do what they did, they just did it anyway and in my belief, burned the site down so all evidence would be lost or at least tampered with to the point of no return. Many resources were used so justice could be served to the people of the FBI and the ATF and all was ignored. Nothing happened to the people. Over 70 people wre in danger because of their religion and beliefs and most were killed. Information needs to be set at certain before events like this happen. Im sure there is plenty of non violent, non holstile ways to get to the bottom of things. If the FBI and ATF really believed children were being harmed and there were many illegal guns they could have went to completely different measures, especially when theyre supposed to be insuring the safety of our people.
I agree with Possom416 when she said, "The FBI were unable to tell what they were going to do when asked from command...they had no plans, they had no idea what they were doing they pretty much did what they wanted to do all because of a couple illegal guns and belief that children were being harmed"
I noticed that the FBI, and the ATF could not say no, and did as was instructed of them. Killing innocent lives, babies, is that right?
Also when she said "The side effects of them two chemicals put together was enough to cause death"
Using chemiclas that are known to hurt people is wrong and immoral. I don't think the FBI, and the ATF even condidered nagotiating with Koresh and his followers. I am sure Koresh would have come out peacefully and given up any illegal weapons to the FBI and taken punishment for any crimes he had committed.
The film clearly shows how intolerance can lead to violence and death. Our government had a problem with David Koresh's way of life, and they made up an excuse to attack him. Even though Koresh may have been abusing women or hiding illegal weapons, the government had no right to attack his whole compound, killing women and children.
The government has displayed violence before in many instances. The National Guard attacked college students at Kent State for protesting the bombing in Cambodia. In the industrial era the government often shut down strikes and used violence against workers. During the Siege at Ruby Ridge the government shot and killed a man's wife, son, and dog all because they thought he was hiding sawed-off shotguns. The right to bear arms is supposedly in place to protect us from our government, but it seems to just give them more reasons to hurt us.
To avoid another incident like Waco or Ruby Ridge, we need to play our part as citizens and let our voices be heard. Sometimes it feels like there's nothing we can do about the government's corruption, but we can at least try. We should stand up for what we think is right even if they don't listen to us. It's hard to avoid things like this in a country as big as the US because it's almost inevitable that there will be corrupt government officials and bad cases of violence from the government. I guess that we should just do our parts and not be shy about standing out against wrong acts committed by the government.
I think that it's awful that the Government is allowed to "come to your home without permission or a warrant if they have 'good' reason to believe that there is evidence of 'terrorism'," as Jon said. They claim to be a democracy, but at the same time they have all of this fine print that gets them around the rules if they don't want to follow them. Jon is right when he says we need to protest. However, keeping in mind that the government bends the rules, we might just get shot as terrorists. Ah, the irony.
When it comes to spiritual beliefs most people wish to be left to their own convictions. At the same time most people harbor a fear of beliefs that are different than theirs. If you want to make a conversation spin on a dime, mention God. Overwhelmingly people will feel uncomfortable talking about such a subject because they do not want others imposing their beliefs on them. The Branch Dividians of Waco were not like this at all. They seemingly kept to themselves and welcomed those who wished to join in their beliefs in. The U.S. Government, though, saw them as a "threat" because they believed differently than most people. The government intervened and killed many innocent people because of this. The Branch Dividians simply wanted to be left to their own beiefs like most other people and to not be imposed upon.
In order to avoid such disasters in the future people need to use tolerance towards others belifs-especially the Government. When others have their own convictins they are not going to change simply because we force ours down their throats; this will most likely cause them to recent that belief more. The people of WAco were normal people like you and me who had their convictions. They weren't normal convictions, but they wished to be left alone to practice them. They wanted to practice them without anyone else telling them what to believe or how to behave. In all reality these people are not differnt than you or me and it takes realizing that to resolve our differences and end religion based killing.
Waco: The Rules of Engagement shows that intolerance breeds violence. In the Waco incident, David Koresh was a man who believed himself to be a prophet of the end times. Of course many would disagree with this man's beliefs, but every person has their own beliefs. Shockingly, this means that there are over six billion different belief systems in the world. Thus, I personally would disagree with everyone in the world in some way or another except for myself. When there are so many different beliefs, people become intolerant of others. In Waco, Texas, the Branch Dividians had their own belief system just like everyone else does. Yet, people felt threatened by them and in the end the government destroyed them. Old, young, sick and healthy all died that day. Nothing good can come of intolerance. Another example of the governmnet slaughtering its own people because of intolerance is the Native American. Believing that they were superior to them, the Americans slaughtered the Native Americans for no other reasons than they were different than the Americans and the Americans wanted the land that they owned. Unfortunately, crimes based on intolerance such as these still happen today. The intolerance of others will always create war, death and suffering. We must stop hating others for no other reason than they disagree with us. Everyone else in the world has a different opinion than you. We must all accept this notion and allow other people to believe what they want to. Remember, if you strike another they will fight back.
The film shows how intolerance of others and thier beliefs can lead to violence and ultimatley death. The government attacked Koresh, his family, and fellow believers for a reason unknown. This kind of act impacts every citizen in the US. If the gov does something like this once, who says that they wont do it again...Keren seems to show that they have. The whole situation is sad. Children being killed for something that they don't understand is nonsense. It shows how the government people have no morals and seem to have stone hearts.
I agree with Matt when he said that intolerance will always lead to war, death, and suffering. Citizens can protest and do whatever they can to try to stop this but the government will do what they want no matter what the people say. Not that protesting doesn't work, but power in the wrong hands overrides everything.
Some people are often scared of a new idea or way of life that is not like theirs, so they are often intolerant of other religions. They don’t like change and they like everything to stay the same way. Government is often uneasy about a new idea because it may threaten the power they have over the people. So they often destroy it before we can know about the whole truth, which we get twenty years later, but no one cares because it’s in the past and were dealing with different issues. But all the issues that we are faced with are connected to each other. The white man tried to wipe the Indian off the face of the earth simply because they are different. In the Waco Incident, the government wanted to protect his followers from David Koresh and the FBI puts in CS gas, fires gun shots and sets the building on fire. I thought this was mind boggling because they were supposedly trying to protect these people but they killed most of them with these stupid acts that killed many of the women and children. I think to avoid future instances like the examples above we the people need to stand up and use our voices more. Then maybe the government would make better decisions because they know if we don’t like it we will be outraged and kick them out of power, they should be scared of us.
I agree with Keren's statement," that sometimes it feels like there's nothing we can do about the government's corruption, but we can at least try." She's right we might not be able to prevent everything, but somethings we could prevent from happening.
I also agree with Matts statement, "We must stop hating others for no other reason than they disagree with us. Everyone else in the world has a different opinion than you. We must all accept this notion and allow other people to believe what they want to." Everyone has a different opinion than us and we can't go off killing them because they disagree with us.
Another good example that our goverment thinks that they are invisible and can do no wrong... in my oppion breaking into someone els's home with out just cause other than they belived that there was "terrorism" thats shit they had no proof of what the were trying to accuse the family of... Alos did they really think it was ok to kill all those kid's that were in that house useing nerve gas and flash bomb's or how about shooting at them to keep them in the house so they couldn't come out and be safe... then they lit the house on fire but of corse they wont be charged with murder because its the us goverment and come on were perfect rite. the FBI and ATF thought that the children were being harmed well if that was the case wouldn't they try to bust in and save the kid instead of killing them with nerve gas and ligthing them on fire. so much for insuring the safety of our people
i agree with Possom416 crimes based on intolerance such as these still happen today. The intolerance of others will always create war, death and suffering. no matter what
The film Waco shows intolerance can lead to violence and death. The ATF and the FBI used a bunch of different weapons, the worst being CS. The reaction of this was body bending. Women and children alike suffered a painful death, and for what? Because Koresh was said to be abusing women and hiding weapons. The logic behind the incident is ridiculous- let's save the children from Koresh and at the same time dump CS into the part of the building that they're knowingly hinding in. The fact that the AFT and FBI actually thought that American would buy the load of crap that they were dishing out is crazy. The ATF and FBI knew they were wrong throughout this entire incident. One man who filmed everything had his film taken away from him, and then when he asked for it back, no one knew where it went. It was lost forever. The entire situation is sad. I don't know if there is a way to avoid another situation like this because as much as we'd like to think that we're in control of the government, we're not. That question is hard, every answer is alot easier said than done.
The films show that Davidians were entitled to their beliefs,and once again the US Government jumps in because of a threat of terrorism. Domestic terrorism is just as important as international threats. But maybe even more so because the domestic groups blend in to much. Are we as a society intolerant?? Yes, because everyone values their own opinion and beliefs. Many people do not like others because of their background, their religious beliefs, and the way they look or dress and act.
The FBI and ATF didn't have enough hard evidence about the weapons and what was going on in the compound. This pattern shows that our government agencies don't communicate between each other. So should the stand off have lasted 51 days and end the way it did, probably not. Would the government risk a stand down and leave, no because Americans were putting pressure on the government and the administration didn't want to look like they went there for no reason.
Koresh had his followers brainwashed and convinced they were basically fighting a holy war or they were untouchable.
The Waco incident is an example of how many people are intolerant of people that they think are different from them. Many people have a hard time accepting people that have different religious beliefs then them as show in this film. I think it was horrible what the governmet did to inocent children and women. They had no right to hurt them because of the actions made by David Koresh. They were regular people like you and me who were just trying to keep to themselves and practice their religion.
I agree with Matt when he says that intolerance will always create war death and suffering. I also agree with Allison when she said that what stops the government from doing something like this again. If the government is capable of doing something this awful once what is going to stop them from doing it again.
This film shows the concequences of intolerance. They couldn't deal with different religion or belief so they resolved it with violence. Over seventy lives were lost. Once the government does something like this it ruins their image. The government is like a bully in a way. They do what they want when they want and they don't give the real reason why.
I agree with Matt when he says "The intolerance of others will always create war, death and suffering." We have to accept that not everyone's going to think like us. We're human, we have our own thoughts and opinions. Let's deal with it and stop starting wars because we don't have the same ideas or don't believe in the same God.
In this film it is very tragic what the government was aloud to do so many horrible things. As for example when they aloud to jus walk into anyones house without any warrant.it shows intolerance and that it can lead to suffering death.knowone really knows the real reason for the attack. the people being killed especially children is very sad.i agree with allison when she said the government has no morals.
i agree with matt when he say intolerance always leads to war, violence and death.we can always protest but the government will not listen.
Reply to Keren: I agree with Keren that it feels like we can do nothing about governmental corruption. As is their nature, people are corrupt. Thus, a utopia is impossible; although, that doesn't mean that we can't try to better our society. I believe we should never give up.
Intolerance is a lethal thing and the Waco incident is just one explicit example of intolerance at its worst. Something as powerfull as the U.S. government being intolorent of something as simple as a few people following what they believe is the right religion is not a good thing for the america people, but to top that off they go and they attempt to make an example of these people and call them terrorists. That’s down right insane. If we want to avoid past inscidents commited by our government like Waco and other FBI/ATF screw ups like when malcom was assassinated we need to challenge our government and not let them get off the hook.
I agree with ackerman that it was completely out of line, immoral, and just plain stupid of the U.S. government under the clinton administration to do those things. I also would agree with that there were much easier means to protect the kids… if they even really needed to be rescued.
Our government had a problem with David and his followers beliefs. Our government doesn't care what happens they just sweep it under the rug and they dont care who they hurt even if its innocent children who have been born into this not knowing what is going on. Our government was currupt.
I agree with Jon when he said that the government is able to come to your home without permission or a warrant if they have “good” reason to believe that there is evidence of “terrorism”. It is just so silly.
The film shows that intolerance can lead to violence and death. The government attacked Koresh and everyone that was close to him...they say it was because Koresh and people inside had a few illegal guns and there were children being harmed. That doesn't really give anyone the right to kill over 70 people, but because they are the government that must give them the right to do whatever they think is right.
As Allison said, This kind of act impacts every citizen in the US. If the gov does something like this once, who says that they wont do it again.
Steph is right when she says, "If the gov does something like this once, who says they won't do it again." Our gov doesn't always think things through before they act. I guess that makes them more human than people think. We don't have the right to barge into somebodys home based on suspicion, so why should the gov be able to do that.
i feel that this is bull shit . . . i hate this part of goverment among others bc they think they can do w.e. they want !
i do agree with jon and possom this all was wrong for acouple illegal things that could have been handled many diffrent and safeer ways !!!!!!!! i feel that there was more than just goverment i feel that maybe a big business or a diffrent influence to all this !
The danger of intolerance is infact, a huge deal in the film. I believe that it is unfair that the government has the right to enter a place with "good" reason to believe there is terrorism. They entered Mt. Carmel without reason. They had no evidence aside from the fact that the people had guns. If that is the case, the government has "good" reason to enter the homes of all americans that own guns. They do not enter these homes because there is not a difference in religious beliefs.l
I feel that Brandi is right. The FBI and everybody else involved had absolutely no idea what they were doing. In the film, it is evident to me and probably to others that everybody was taking advantage of their powers. With all the women and children inside, you would have thought they would have atleast been a bit more cautious. If a government official makes a mistake or takes advantage of their position, I think they should be dismissed of their position and possibly sentenced to jail time... I believe that somebody in a higher position of power taking advantage of that is no different than a person working on the higher level of a business that "scams" money...Can anybody think of how this would be different aside from the amount of damage and harm that would be caused?
The film supported the intolerance of our government towards other beliefs. The government is supposed to be by the people and for the people and yet theyre comming in and attacking its people. The people of Waco were innocent yet still they lost their lives for standing up for what they believe in, trying to protect themselves. The government going in and running tanks through their house killing innocent children even, just throws me. The government can pretty much do what it wants and get away with it. What kind of a government is that...its not by the people or for the people its a bunch of rich people doing what they want for themselves.
They went in and attacked them because they had a few of illegal guns in the house and they believed that children were being harmed...they had no evidence of anything only the fact they didnt like the way the people of waco were doing things, until they went and attacked them. I agree with Possom416...what if it was the governments children, what would they do then. Would they kill their kids...or would they take different measures...what if?
~Felisha
Waco: The Rules of Engagement basically revals the government violating the rights of David Koresh and his followers. Intolerance by the government led to the death of innocent citizens that had the right to practice their beliefs and seclude themselves. It's not like they were hurting anyone or destroying anything. I agree with Nathan that the U.S. Government saw them as a "threat" because they believed differently than most people. That was enough evidence to make rash decisions to end the Branch Dividian way of life. I also a agree with Brandi that if the FBI and ATF really believed children were being harmed and there were many illegal guns, they could have went to completely different measures. Especially when they're supposed to be insuring the safety of our people. All in all the government choked and made itself look like a bunch of idiots.
I think everyone can agree that what the ATF, FBI did at Waco was wrong. But some people are saying that they had good intentions(helping kids, and getting rid of guns)but everyone knows that no matter where you go kids are in danger and illegal weapons are in use. I think the government was simply trying to get good publicity from the press, why else would they notify everyone before hand. And when things didn't go exactly as planned they panicked and everything fell apart. They violated peoples rights, murdered civilians. As horrible as those things are, i think that the real tragedy isn't what happened at waco, it's what didn't happen everywhere else. Those agents and all government officials who sent them in got off way to easy, just goes to show how injust our counrty really is.
to me its crazy that the people could get away with that kind of a crime. the slotterd the people just for one man. the people had called 911 and wanted help because the were bein attacked and they didnt want. the point is they didnt have to kill everyone to get one guy. yes i believe the had reason to arrest him but not to kill everyone. the fact that the gov. got away with this is just nuts and we sure as heck need more checks and balances goin on.
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